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Edited: Nov 07, 2021

Please Explain the Multiple Cleon Replacements

I know this is being discussed in the Hari's uploaded consciousness thread, but I thought I'd separate it out....

I can't make any sense of the replacement Cleons pointed out by Brother Dawn. Exactly how does this work? So, they grow Cleons that are each a certain year old from, what? Age 1 to Age 90? and freeze dry each of those 90 Cleons? So that, just in case a Cleon accidentally dies or proves to be a failure they can replace him, no matter the age?

Am I understanding that's how this works?

If I've got it right, then there's this warehouse of Cleons and they can just implant the right memories and mind into the one they need. SO, Problem with Brother Dawn? No problem. Erase damaged Brother Dawn, Roll out Brother Dawn age 17, download the saved mind into him and he's ready to go. No interruption in service.

Now, someone said that these can't be as good as the "grown from birth" types...but that makes no sense. If you're going to replace Brother Dawn with freeze-dried Brother Dawn then he has to be AS GOOD as one grown from birth. OTHERWISE you're going to end up with an inferior Brother Day on the throne and running the Empire! 😱 I presume that whoever created this wacky plan made darn sure that this freeze-dried replacement would be as good as the grown-from-birth sort. I mean, you already got rid of the "grown from birth" Brother Dawn because he wasn't satisfactory. You don't want a problem with the him once he becomes all-powerful Brother Day and is giving orders to, say, firebomb planets.

Which brings us to the question...Why in the world are are the Cleons bothering to bring up future emperors from birth? You could skip all those years of raising a kid, and risking that he'll go wrong or die in an accident, and just bring out the freeze-dried one. Age, whatever, ready to be and do whatever Brother Dawn does when he's of an age to share rulership (does he do anything?).

I mean, if the aim is to have the exact same Cleons over and over again, as close to the original as possible, why risk variants? Just use the freeze-dried ones.

Can anyone explain why they need to do the whole life cycle thing with the baby and the nanny and the life lessons all that when they've got at least 90 Cleons waiting to be used in the Imperial Warehouse?

11 comments

11 Comments

D. Thorn

Nov 20, 2021

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And there we have it. At the very end there Brother Dusk says (more or less) "I want a new Brother Dawn decanted and brought up to speed by tomorrow" indicating that Brother Dusk, at least, thinks that the bottled Cleons can be taken out and used in place of the born ones with no interruption and no inferiority in service.

So, the bottled Cleons clearly are not considered inferior to the born ones--Brother Dusk pretty much says that.

Which, once again, seems to make the whole idea of raising the from birth kinda pointless.

Of course, now there's that wrinkle which says that born or bottled, none of them are exact replicas and none of them can be depended on.

Which in itself undermines the whole premise of the problem with clone emperors that are exact replicas. Would Cleon the First's scheme have worked if no one had interfered with the DNA for however long it's been interfered with?

Maria White

Nov 13, 2021

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I don't see a massive problem with different Cleons of different ages having different tolerance to risk. People change as they age and with different life experiences.

I don't think Brother Dawn intended to kill himself. Once we learned that he's colorblind, it makes more sense. I think he was trying to see the garden design but he couldn't because he's colorblind, and that upset him, and then he fell by accident.

Strictly speaking, we are told that the replacements would be good enough to be Empire, not that they are as good as one raised from birth.

Brother Dawn is a mutant, and clearly his mutations go beyond being colorblind, he mentions several differences and he makes it clear that he finds it hard to be like his brothers. He must think that his DNA, at least in the parts that affect his brain functioning, is quite different from his brothers, and his replacement is free from mutations. So, by replacing him, they'd have a Brother Dawn that is an identical clone, with the memories of the previous Brother Dawn. He clearly thinks that having the correct DNA is more important than having the right memories in order to be Empire. We don't know yet what his brothers think.

I think it's unlikely this Brother Dawn is the Mule because the Mule should be happening later in the future. I suppose it could be a future mutant Brother Dawn, though I'd find it disappointing too. He was a more impressive character in the books by coming from nowhere. Having inside knowledge on how the Empire works would make him less impressive. But I gather that teen villains are a fashionable concept these days.

The point about Halima is off-topic for this thread, I'll write my answer on the Laws of Robotics thread.

D. Thorn

Nov 16, 2021

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Replying to

I didn't say Brother Dawn WAS or WOULD BECOME the Mule. I said--or meant--that his mutations were going to lead to the Mule. That the Mule will be one of his descendants. That's a wild guess on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised i it goes that way.

You state "Strictly speaking, we are told that the replacements would be good enough to be Empire, not that they are as good as one raised from birth."

Strictly speaking we aren't EVER told that a replacement IS NOT good enough as one raised from birth. And given that any replacement for Brother Dawn or Day WILL sit on the throne and run the Empire, that replacement HAS to be good enough. Otherwise there's no point to them. So, I think we have to assume that yes, they *are* as good as one raised from birth.

And if Freeze Dried Brother Dawn has the identical personality/memories, etc of the one born but defective, then he would REMEMBER that he used to be color blind, in love with a gardener, tried to kill himself, etc. In what way would that erase the defect? Is it really his DNA that makes him a better hunter or the way he thinks? I have a hard time believing that Freeze Dried Brother Dawn would be free of "defects" if he had the same memories, thoughts, personality, etc. of the born-but-defective-one and was only different in regards to not having any DNA mutations.

Now, if the Freezed Dried Brother Dawn is given the memories of a former, successful Brother Dawn, then I'll buy the replacement as being "defect" free...but in that case, I still don't see the need to raise any of these Cleon's from birth.

RandyO

Nov 11, 2021

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I think you folks are giving the writers more credit than they deserve. I believe they're simply making it up as they go.

Think about this, Halima was completely defeated at the end of the episode but yet, Cleon still decided to assassinate her.

Ask yourself, what could be the outcome of that move on her home planet? ... a lot of people will develop conspiracy theories that Cleon had her taken out by some mysterious aneurysm producing drug (now, a verified factoid). I mean Cleon arrives and even before he leaves the surface in his spaceship, Halima dies. What a coincidence?! And along with that, others will pose the idea that Cleon had various versions of himself, walk different parts of the spiral so that the real Cleon only walked the final 10 miles which any person in reasonable health could achieve.

Instead of the above, if Halima returned home in embarrassment, she'd have to revamp her ideas about the nature of souls and that 'The Universe' could manifest at will, regardless of human preconceptions.

In essence, that would have been Cleon's greatest victory, both politically and from a ecumenical p.o.v. Did the writers even conceive of that? I would doubt it.

D. Thorn

Nov 12, 2021

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Replying to

Oh, I totally agree with you. It's pretty clear that the writers are throwing in anything they think is "cool" at any point along this, um, spiraling down the toilet series 😇 with no regard as to whether if makes sense or is consistent to what they've told us before.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of what we're seeing were old ideas from the writers and show-runner, ones they've never been able to put into a tv show or movie until now. That they've jumped at this opportunity to use the Foundation series as a vehicle to showcase these old ideas. Like the clone-happy Cleons.

Unfortunately for us, this means that Asimov has been kicked out of the driver's seat; heck, he's not even in the passenger seat. His ideas have been sent to the back seat while these other wacky ideas drive the car right off the road.

Maria White

Nov 10, 2021

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The way I understood the replacement Cleons is that every time a new Cleon is born, it isn't just one Cleon, but two: one that gets to live a normal imperial life, another one that is put in suspended animation and ages at the normal rate, and remains unconscious all the time unless he's needed for an emergency replacement. That's why we see a replacement Brother Dawn and a replacement Brother Day that are the same age as Brother Dawn and Brother Day.

I think the emergency replacements are somewhat inferior, because what I've seen so far makes me think that downloading a human brain into an AI isn't a very good copy of the original person. The Hari Seldon AI in episode 8 was having trouble behaving close enough to a normal human being in those circumstances, let alone one that likes Gaal.

I don't think that having a somewhat inferior Brother Day is an unsurmountable problem. Brother Dawn, Brother Dusk and Demerzel would compensate for any deficiencies. Demerzel must have been leading the Empire herself after Cleon I died and while Cleon II was only a child.

Brother Dawn is afraid of being killed for not being good enough or close enough to the original, and his emergency replacement being woken up to take his place, but we haven't seen Brother Day's or Brother Dusk's opinion on the issue, so it could well be that his fears are unfounded.

The question of who has the real power, whether the Emperor of Demerzel, is a good one. In the books, Demerzel has the real power, but she resigns because, as a robot, she reaches a point when she finds it too hard to follow the Laws of Robotics (including the Zeroth Law) in her position of First Minister. I'm not sure I find that reason to give up power particularly convincing. So far, we've only seen the Emperor separated from Demerzel to go on his religious pilgrimage, and that doesn't give us any clues on how capable is the Emperor of running the Empire without Demerzel.

RandyO

Nov 11, 2021

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Replying to

"So far, we've only seen the Emperor separated from Demerzel to go on his religious pilgrimage, and that doesn't give us any clues on how capable is the Emperor of running the Empire without Demerzel."

IMHO, the writers are throwing everything out there.

For a person who's been pampered his whole life in a comfortable castle, he takes a huge risk in walking a 100 miles in a sunny desert with no belly fat and no electrolytes to save him in-case he goes into heat exhaustion a/o stroke via dehydration or starvation. The fact about the nanobot removal is a given.

But then, we see other versions of him being completely risk averse and doing nothing, much of the time. Brother Dusk has nothing going on in his old age and let's face it, if Brother Dawn really wanted to die, why wear the bracelet before jumping?

I believe the writers are keeping the whole independent person vs a predestined clone as a dangling carrot. I suspect they won't resolve it during this season but keep it open ended to woo the audience.

D. Thorn

Nov 11, 2021

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Replying to

Maria White said: "I think the emergency replacements are somewhat inferior, because what I've seen so far makes me think that downloading a human brain into an AI isn't a very good copy of the original person."

The inferiority of a human brain downloaded into an AI in no wise proves that a human brain, downloaded into an organic, human brain anatomically exact to the original, would likewise be inferior. Until we see such, I'm taking the writers at their word. They say, "Freeze Dried Brother Dawn can replace original Brother Dawn and be exactly 'right'..."

This is stated as a fact. So let's take it as such.

Okay, freeze-dried Brother Dawn is growing along with regular Brother Dawn to replace him if need be. And exactly HOW does this work? I mean, if original Brother Dawn is a problem (not exact enough) then downloading HIS brain into the freeze-dried one won't solve the problem. You still get the faulty Brother Dawn only now, maybe, he can see colors.

So, Whose brain gets downloaded into freeze-dried Brother Dawn to make sure he's problem free? And if you have a perfect 17 year old Brother Dawn on file to be downloaded into the freeze-dried one...why do you have to raise one from birth at all? Why chance that you'll end up with a defective one?

Oh, and can I just say...all of this has led me to an unsettling thought....

***POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS***

Are these mutations in the the current Brother Dawn, who is thinking of making a break for it, how the show is going to end up with the Mule? I know the books never explain where the Mule comes from. Frankly, I like that. But it seems to me that tv/movie writers who take massive liberties with their source material, and who clearly want to use that source material as a place to show off all sorts of story ideas they've had over the years, but never before got to use....

Those types of writers tend to want to answer questions that the source material left unanswered. Including questions better left unanswered. Like: "where did the Mule come from?"

I hope I"m wrong about this. But this mutation in Brother Dawn is either going to end up a shaggy dog story (he and/or the girlfriend dies tragically and the story was all there as a character study rather than furthering the plot) OR....or it's leading to something down the line. Maybe the Mule?

🙄

RandyO

Nov 07, 2021

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I think you know the answer ... it's all a hokey construct and doesn't take into account that ppl learn, even at the age of 90, despite knowing that they're in their final decade of life.

The whole preserved Emperor is about maintaining some sort of ages 40 to 70 optimization strategy so that the thoughts and ideologies of the Emperor of those decades stay constant forever.

I would imagine that even Cleon the 1st saw that this was a mediocre idea versus giving him artificial organs, cybernetic implants, and a massive multi-parallel servers, in some super cloud formation, to keep his consciousness going so that he could learn and grow forever.

In other words, the present Cleon would in fact be a type of 400 year old man who's seen it all, much like Ito.

But of course, this is a "JJ Abrams" type of show and thus, anything goes even if it doesn't make sense.

D. Thorn

Nov 07, 2021

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Replying to

Well, I won't say the three Cleon life-cycle made sense, but it sorta made a kind of sense until they threw in this curve ball of freeze-dried replacements. That makes the whole baby-to-youth-to-adult-to-elder cycle of clones pretty pointless.

I mean, it's like the writers had one idea when they started (each one grows and develops as needed for to handle whatever problem the Galactic Empire is having at that time). Then the writers changed their mind ("Oh, no, they have to be exactly the same as the original. Same taste in food, same hunting abilities, etc. No growth or development allowed"). And then they added in the dire "and if they're not the same...." (scary hall of frozen clones). 🥸 And the absurdities continue.

RandyO

Nov 07, 2021

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Replying to

@D. Thorn

After spending so many episodes and minutes of developing a type of Cleon anthology, they flip-flopped and went into some dysfunctional puppet monarch system.

In reality, if this latter setup was true, then there's probably a 2nd robot like Ito, running the show from behind the scenes, manipulating Ito remotely, to insure that each Cleon follows rules so that the Empire appears contiguous to the rest of the galaxy. Of course, being disciples of JJ Abrams, we know that no such conspiracy exists and that it's mere hack script writing.

I can't imagine Cleon the First orchestrating such a fiasco for his future selves esp when if it were possible, he'd probably be learning and growing from ages 90 to 500 if the life extension technologies allowed for it.

Please Explain the Multiple Cleon Replacements

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